Civilian

 http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=2366553374&sid=1

 " After further discussion and testing we’ve decided to add threat reduction deep in the paladin's retribution tree. Fanaticism will now reduce threat caused by all actions by 6/12/18/24/30%, in addition to its current effect."

Rawr.

I have no idea if this actually would make paladin's viable raid dps, but looks more likely now. 

Fury warriors are getting an added threat reduction as long as they're speccing into imp zerker stance. 2/4/6/8/10%.  Pretty sweet, although, with all good things must come a bad, such as swapping sweeping strikes and deathwish [:'(] 

Fap:

I have no idea if this actually would make paladin's viable raid dps, but looks more likely now. 

Is threat really the main issue with Retadins?  I figured they were just like warriors, had to figure out a good way to dps a lot, but not so far as to completely overpower the tank on threat.  For me, as long as I have salv I can usually dps with no haulting, unless of course Gurruk needs to stop threat generation for some reason; is that the same for Retadins for the most part?

Crusher:

Is threat really the main issue with Retadins?  I figured they were just like warriors, had to figure out a good way to dps a lot, but not so far as to completely overpower the tank on threat.  For me, as long as I have salv I can usually dps with no haulting, unless of course Gurruk needs to stop threat generation for some reason; is that the same for Retadins for the most part?

Well, a couple things.

1) I think (although correct me if I'm wrong), Warriors have always had -10% threat in Berzerker stance.  So you always had something, whereas Ret paladins didn't have anything (you can't count salv since everyone has that).

2) A fury warrior does really fast small attacks with his two weapons, thus accumulating threat in a generally controlled manner.  A Ret paladin swings a slow 2-hander.  So his damage (and threat) come in big chunks.  If you manage to say towards the beginning of the fight, get a crit on your auto-attack, the Seal of Blood proc, the judgement of Blood, and your Crusader strike all at the same time (very possible since each is like 30% crit for a decently gear Ret pally), you've just busted out a huge amount of threat all at once in an uncontrolled fashion.  A fury warrior is swinging away building his threat in small increments, but a Ret pally busts out a range of like 2k-6k damage every 4 seconds in chunks and you can't control which end of that range you'll be on.  (Those specific numbers may be wrong, but you get the point).  Since you can't predict if you're going to get a string of crits, you have to play it safe and not spam your abilities.

3) As you know, as a warrior, in melee you only need to pass by 10% to pull.

I mean, I dunno.  I've never actually raided as Ret.  Well, I did a Karazhan run once as Ret and I didn't really have threat problems so long as I gave the tank some time at the start.  Most Retadins who raided though seemed to think this was a problem.

In addition to what fap listed, ret pallies are also getting buffs on thier dps end as well.  Crusader strike is on a 6 sec CD (originally 10); Precision is affects spell hit as well as melee; 3% more crit to spells and melee, and lower mana costs on several nukes.

Paladins had higher than normal threat gain do to how seals work.  To have to hold back on DPS, when you are already not performing as a dps'er if you go all out, destroyed ret pallies in raids.

In short, we had crappy dps, and high aggro.  If Blizz upped the DPS, we would have crazy super high aggro.  To address that, they lowered threat.

Paladins had higher than normal threat gain do to how seals work.

Can you elaborate on this a little bit?

spell gains give threat.

seal/judgement of light/wisdom.

Any idea how much? 

how is a ret pally better then a enhancement shaman?

how is a ret pally better then a rogue?

how is a ret pally better then a DPS warrior?

how is a ret pally better then its healer counterpart in a 25 raid slot?

what can a ret pally bring that is unique and benifical to the raid that a normal pally cannot bring?

why bring a ret pally at all?

chaos in relation to what you said

Ret paladins do serve a purpose after all

another blessings =o 

*Cough*

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30621

http://thottbot.com/i27900

http://thottbot.com/i29181

*Cough*

In a enhancement shaman chase. you can't ENHANCE DPS if your dead.... You lose DPS by stacking threat reduce trinkerts but if your dying alot this could save you or help with aggro gaining spurts.... So you can either die die or try to survuve and maintain DPS =(

As for ret pallies, in all the groups I have seen they are aggro machines and Ret seems to be a PVP thing =( enhancement use to be like that till they started to revamp it. And in the Expansion they made it even more Viable for PVE. But as Chaos  said, I don't know much about ret and it's abilities, But what raid/group benifets does it have? More importantly are the ret buffs equal = > than shadow priest for health and mana regen, Windfury/Grace of air/Strength of Earth, Totem of Wrath, Leader of the Pack, Battle/Commanding /Demo Shout,Thunder clap, Curse, Faire Fire............ etc?

Chaosbane:

how is a ret pally better then a enhancement shaman?

how is a ret pally better then a rogue?

how is a ret pally better then a DPS warrior?

how is a ret pally better then its healer counterpart in a 25 raid slot?

what can a ret pally bring that is unique and benifical to the raid that a normal pally cannot bring?

why bring a ret pally at all?

 

A ret pally right now is not better than any of those things.  I'm talking about in patch 2.3.

Enhance shaman? Ret pally gives 2% damage boost to his group...probably not as much as the shaman's totems, but with the boost in DPS to Ret pallies, it might make up for it.

Rogue? Certainly the Ret pally won't do as much DPS as a rogue even in 2.3...but the pally gives another blessing, 2% more damage for his group, 3% crit for the whole raid, and refreshes all 3 judgments (Wisdom, Light, Crusader)

DPS Warrior? Again, it's impossible to tell at this point if Ret paladin DPS (plus his utility to the raid as mentioned above) will be buffed enough to make it as good as DPS warrior.

Ret pally compared to Holy pally?  I don't understand what you mean by this.  That's like saying, what can a feral druid offer that a resto druid can't?  They offer completely different things.  Holy paladins give a blessing to the raid and heal stuff.  Ret paladins give a blessing to the raid, and DPS stuff, give their group 2% more damage, and refresh the judgments of other paladins.

Now, I'm not saying that our guild should be the one that experiments with Ret pallies in 2.3.  However, the Ret tree is receiving SIGNIFICANT damage buffs, which when combined with their current utility, might make it viable.  There's really no way to tell how much these buffs will affect a Ret pallies DPS, but if it means anything, these changes show Blizzard's intention to make it PvE viable (as shown by the threat reduction). 

 Also Paladains are a hybrid class. from looking at the Ret tree it seems to not be based around enhancing a group other than imp'd Blessing of might Which could make the tree leaning towards being a Primary DPS'er tree other than a suppport class.... So that being said ret pallies can Maintain the same DPS as a fire mage, affliction lock, combat sword rogue as a example???? Cause I have a real bad outlook on pallies, I like the blessing and all, but we are horde, we use to get by before with out them so on the same hand saying OMG more bleesing is nothing to appealing to me 

Will thes changes make you superior to other damage class's or equal or nothing? 

Emanx:

Cause I have a real bad outlook on pallies, I like the blessing and all, but we are horde, we use to get by before with out them so on the same hand saying OMG more bleesing is nothing to appealing to me 

I don't understand this argument, and Inso has said it too.  So what if you got by without pallies pre-TBC.  Alliance got by without shaman as well.  So does that mean Shaman and Paladins are superfluous classes?  No, that's silly.  Without a doubt, Blizzard has balanced TBC 25 mans assuming you have paladin and shaman.  Do you really think we'd perform as well if we didn't have Kings, Salvation, and a 3rd (might or wisdom)?  I sure know that the few times we've had only 2 paladins in the raid people complain "I want mah blessing"!

Anyway, I don't intend in this thread to say that Ret paladins are going to be amazing and god's gift to raiding.  Nor do I necessarily even think we should use them.  I'm just pointing out Blizzard's clear intention to make Ret paladin's raid viable, and the 2.3 changes might actually do this.  By giving 30% threat reduction they're clearly saying, "We want to you to consider Ret paladins for PvE and not dismiss the thought as a joke". 

In no way was trying to say Pallies> shamans pallies>shaman. Yes IMO we could do just fine without totems and blessing but thats a matter of opionion just as play style and player skill.

Fap:

Do you really think we'd perform as well if we didn't have Kings, Salvation, and a 3rd (might or wisdom)?  I sure know that the few times we've had only 2 paladins in the raid people complain "I want mah blessing"!"

Totems and Blessing are nice enhancers but in no way are "I WIN buttons" =(